[flying fox]

Since Race Nights recently had its first birthday, and as we approach 2014, now seems like the time to open up this topic to allow any suggestions and improvements to the current way we organize and operate Race Nights. A lot of our ideas were implemented a while ago, and the race group has definitely changed in a year's time. We would like to hear any thoughts, criticisms, or suggestions that you might have to help improve Race Nights. Some thoughts have already come up amongst myself and Hyper, as well as from other racers, such as this very topic, suggested by TimpZ, as well as the following:

1) A new layout change?
Recently, I had noticed that the hacks/fangames have been getting more interest, which led to an idea of a new layout which will incorporate hacks and fangames more often then they appear currently, the layout looking like this: Week 1 would be a 2D game, then Week 2 a 3D game, then Week 3, a hack/fangame, and cycling through this every time (or something similar).

However, Hyper brings up a critical question that had me thinking: Are hacks popular because there were some good ones picked, or is it because people are increasingly yearning for something different?

2) Sorting out the games list:
We've been thinking about sorting out the 2D games; at minimum, splitting this into 2 subdivisions of about 10 games each, since the ratio of 2D to 3D is roughly 2:1 at the moment. This may help encourage a variety of 2D games to appear a bit more often than they do currently.

We would also like to sort out the hacks/fangames, potentially adding new ones and taking out some old ones with the general goal of having a list of hacks/fangames that have new level layouts as opposed to "<character> in Sonic 1" hacks.

---------

For reference only:

Likely:
- Revote for games to be raced list to attempt to shrink the list

Possible:
- "Miscellaneous night" - this concept has potential, but can it work?
- An extension of RN, racing more popular/easier to obtain and play Sonic games (on a different day of the week?/once per month?)
- Perhaps some sort of RN tourney that can involve the more popular Sonic games? Would best be an all-rounded sort of event.

Meh/Not highest priority:
- Possibly getting a more dedicated SRL voice+? (Time has not been too much of an issue in recent days imo...)

Not likely:
- Earlier vote cut-off (practice is not our issue :P - even so, more likely than not, the votes point towards one option anyway)
- Another vote for RN start time (not until at least mid 2014, or if a serious issue arises)

[dwhitethegamer]

You've brought up a good point.  The hacks are getting more popular, and if it keeps up we might be able to see the Sonic hacks in this very site.  Not that it matters because more Sonic games are being made by you-know-who.  Though I don't have any hacked Sonic games, they're starting to get my interest as well.

[Kirbymon30]

You've brought up a good point.  The hacks are getting more popular, and if it keeps up we might be able to see the Sonic hacks in this very site.  Not that it matters because more Sonic games are being made by you-know-who.  Though I don't have any hacked Sonic games, they're starting to get my interest as well.

There used to be an unofficial TSC from what I heard, which included both hacks and fangames. If fangames/hacks were to have leaderboards again, that board would probably get revived as well.

As for improvements to the current RN system, I can't really think of anything. The only problem I have is with the times, but that's more of a personal issue because I keep being busy on Saturday nights and/or dinner makes me lose time. Not sure what more can be done with the time considering that I'm not the only person here, though.

I think the hacks are in fact popular because they're unique and different, sort of like what Hyper said. Hacks are popular all over the web because a lot of people like the different ideas within them. If you'd like some advice, hacks that implement entirely new mechanics prove to be more popular than hacks that add level layouts, characters, or even combinations of the two. I'd recommend checking out hacks Sonic VR or Jester's Challenge, for example, as those are very interesting hacks. Not sure that all of them are easy to race, but it's an idea.

[Thorn]

^ We already discussed Jester's Challenge, and the fact that it lacks checkpoints and ends in a boss means that it's not very raceable. Sonic VR does not add any new mechanics and is in fact only new layouts, so that seems to lessen your point a bit...? In any case, hacks that re-use the same old level layouts are indeed more popular than hacks with new ones, as people tend to forgive any level design mistakes in the original games but are critical of new layouts. That said, I can't bring myself to race "X in Sonic 1" over and over again if I were to re-enter Race Nights. There needs to be something fresh. I've already linked flying fox to a bunch of layout hacks, and while most of them are incomplete, they can easily be put together to make one race.

[sonikkusama]

going to start by saying i personally hate the hack nights. i do them when i can because i like racing with you guys, but the hacks tend to annoy me more often than not, especially the buggier ones. that said, there have been a few that i enjoyed, but the vast majority of them annoy me to the point where i'm just spaced out at the end trying to complete it because i don't want to forfeit. also to note, if the 2d to 3d ratio is giving us too much 2d, then more hack nights will just further that problem.

i would also like to see a miscellaneous night implemented. one where games like the racing games and quirkier games like the isometrics and the storybook games fall into place. i personally think these races should be more rare though, since there's not that many and they might not be that fun to race. games like that could also probably just be removed from the schedule to save bloat. they also tend to take away from a 3d slot, since a lot of them are 3d, and removing/giving them their own night would help make 3d nights feel more prevalent.

[Connor Marini]

There used to be an unofficial TSC from what I heard, which included both hacks and fangames. If fangames/hacks were to have leaderboards again, that board would probably get revived as well.

Speaking of the unofficial soniccenter, when it will it be introduced again? Not that it matters.

[Connor Marini]

Thanks for telling me because I'm really looking forward to seeing it 1 day.

[TimpZ]

One thing I must say I dislike about RN is the fact that it is at Saturday at 10pm for me. I know we've discussed the time before but I have to dedicate the entire saturday evening for it which also means that I can't join around half of them because I'm either visiting my mom or I want to meet up with a friend or go out etc.

When I can make it, I'd love having a closer group to do more races with since some races take half an hour and then everyone sprawls off doing other things while I sit at home doing nothing a saturday evening. That in itself is not a complaint about RN however since I realise it's more of a personal matter, but it would definitely make me want to join a bit more if we did more races or played online games together afterwards as a sort of afterparty.

I'd also like to see more of games that are multi-platform or easy to get a hold of and less of games that might be for example PS3 exclusive as it cuts off everyone without access to them. While it's not a problem when it comes to races in general I myself could not join the anniversary race because of this for example.

One of the best RN I had was SA All stories. It took me 5 hours and I had a blast with the skype call. I'd like to see longer categories or multiple-game races like this such as Genesis trilogy or perhaps Shadow all endings for random RN's.

For example with the S2 race last week I wanted to be able to perform well, but knuckles was chosen and I had only a few hours to prepare. At least when the categories differ as vastly like that I could do with having an earlier vote cutting point by a day or two.

This is also not a complaint, but there's so many goddamn Sonic games. I personally would think it was cool if we had a small list of the most popular and easily accessible Sonic games (e.g. S1, S3K, SA2B and Generations) which we could do for example: Have it on sunday, 1 game for all 4 weeks of the month and make it more of a competitive thing like the weekly AlttP or Bingo races. Alternatively we could have the same game every week for a month then rotate between months. Or something of that sorts, you get my point.


That is all I can think of right now.

[Werey]

If we had the same game 4 times in a month, I bet people will get even more tired out with the games.

My only complaints, from when I do join them is how long it takes us to start. Even when we set time limits (which shouldn't even be there considering it's a 10pm start) people still consistently take even longer, while still "joined" preventing us from all starting. You need to get a proper timing system up, and if you do choose to extend the starting period, make sure we have an understanding with one of the SRL mods to remove them from the race if they repeatedly delay the start time. At this point after a year, the people over at SRL know it's a frequent thing so I'm sure they'd be able to help us out a little right?

That and people voting that don't even race. I understand voting and not being able to make it on the night, but voting because you want to see a certain race with no intentions of joining makes it a tad unfair to the other voters (even if the margin is considerably larger).

I've started to race less and less because I personally don't like the Hack nights and I'm not big on the 2D games so I only ever race certain 3D games. I would however be more likely to join if we had more 2D/3D mixed nights like we did with the special race night to give a bit of variety.

[TimpZ]

I agree with the latecomers Werey, but I think you misunderstood what I meant with the popular games. What I meant was that after, before or even another day to host some weekly races for popular games to increase the competition. RN right now is a lot of games with lots of people that either never played them or are bad at them and the ones that win are usually people that either do run the games or practised in beforehand just for the race.

There are weekly races for a lot of games, Ocarina of Time, Super Metroid, A Link to the Past... I don't see why TSC couldn't hostfor example a monthly SA2 race in addition to the normal race nights in order to promote actual competition.

[Werey]

Well, the problem was when SA2 was featured in the Season of races, people lost interest very quickly, which seems to be the case for alot of sonic games. If we did the same thing too often, I reckon people will get bored again

[TimpZ]

That's why I'm suggesting once a month or one month at a time.

[sonikkusama]

I also assume making them "rare" means something like having them once every 6 weeks-2 months?

that is exactly what i meant, you could have it alternating with hack night, so a hack one month, a misc game the other month. unless people actually want hack night to be more often, in which case you could just put a misc night at the end of every 2 cycles, so every 7th week or further apart than that if you want. or again, you could just remove these games since they're not that popular and if people express interest they could just have a non race night race. also imo, 3d races being more prevalent even if there is less games isn't too bad since there's more variance in goals for those games. for example, to me sonic 2 as knuckles feels very similar to sonic 2 as sonic, but sonic adventure 2 dark story feels a lot different from hero story.

also since it's been brought up, i would once again like to go on record that i also am not that fond of the race night time. i'd prefer it to be either MUCH earlier or MUCH later. it's hard for me to plan my saturdays around it since my friends like to come over to my house on saturdays, and i'd like to be able to do these when my friends aren't over so i can join calls again and not get overloaded with people in my ear and from all directions of my house trying to communicate with me.

i also am in favor of a smaller list of more accessible sonic games. while i WILL play anything and probably have fun doing it, it kinda sucks having to wait a long time for a sonic game i actually really enjoy replaying to pop up, especially if it finally pops up and its a goal i'm not particularly fond of. though the idea of having an additional monthly race or whatever for a specific game isn't bad if you don't want to trim the games list down for the main race night

[sonikkusama]

another vote is a good idea probably, given that there are a lot of people here now that weren't here when we first voted. you could also throw all the games that weren't voted for or have very slight interest into the misc group if you do decide to make a race dedicated to those kinds of games. that said throwing all your 3d blasts and your labyrinths and your kart racers and your fighting games and your whatever the hell else into their own category would already lower the amount of games played on certain nights a lot and leave pretty much the main sonic platformers for the more common nights.

[Kheartz]

Probably won't be a popular opinion, but I wish there were two to three simultaneous Sonic races per race night. It's good and all to have one game where the whole community can play, but many times, I feel people have to opt out since they don't either own the game or are not too familiar enough with it to race. Having multiple options a night could possibly increase the participation frequency of community members. I joined the week after SA2B and that was one of the only games I played. I've been waiting to race in a TSC race since.

[InferSaime]

I see one big problem with that idea. People might want to join the second race and not the first. And considering that for Americans could have dinner at that time or for Europeans too late to join as it pretty much means it's after midnight or pretty close. I don't know with Australians though. If something like that is the case the 2nd race might have like 2 entrants. Of course doing them simultaneous doesn't help elp either. But what I suggest in having a 2nd race much earlier or later so it's on Sunday where it is during noon for the Europeans and evening for Australians as I believe race nights now are during the morning so having a 2nd race a lot earlier could make it easier for Australians to join. Then again a race later also makes it easier for them to join. But having a 2nd race would be a good idea depending on the time the race is.

[dwhitethegamer]

Well, we should know that. 

What I'm talking about is Sonic "UnWiished" that generally got ignored by a game that was "Down ranked atrosis" (SomecallmeJohnny).  People got more interested in a game that has THE worst story ever over "The inferior version" of a superior game.

I guess people- or should I say, the Sonic fan base- don't understand that it doesn't matter which version of a game you play, just as long as its fun to play.  And if I know that fan base, and I do, they're probably arguing about which version is better as you read this.

Seriously, people.  Does it really matter?

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Kirbymon30]

Two races in one day could work, but it would have to be carried out carefully. Time constraints are probably the biggest reason people can't join (myself included).

Personally, I think that a 2 PM or 3PM race followed by a 6PM or 7PM race would work, but the latter race should be a shorter game than the former. This is mostly to address the issues of Europeans/Australians where it's around midnight for them, and for the younger and/or busier racers who simply cannot be racing at 9-10PM. I do realize that quite a few of us are older Americans, but many young teenagers have popped up as of lately (again, myself included).

I probably sound like I'm just talking about myself right now, but others have had pretty much the same problem.

Now, I may not be interpreting this correctly, but Hyper has a point--with two races in one day, overcrowding could become an issue, especially with the more popular games like Generations. He also mentioned that there may not be as many people as expected.

If the 2 races a day thing doesn't work, I suggest Friday/Saturday races or Saturday/Sunday races. How we'd sort the times out in that case might take some thinking, but it could work.

[SB737]

I'll get back to racing soon, when I can

Personally I'm not a big fan of hack night, I'd prefer to see it reduced, rather than in increased

I enjoy the general system as it is, the rotor for games seems good, so keeping it the same as it is would suit me, however i would like to see more multigame races, maybe a monthly thing.
 Maybe we could have a race Friday evening once a month, this being an extra race, where its a multigame one or something like that.

[dwhitethegamer]

I see.

Later or earlier races work, but races that people have more interest over races that people have little interest never works in my book.

[Token]

I only glanced at OP so some of this might have already been said but here's my suggestions

- Change the voting system
- Change the way a tie is decided
- Start penalizing people who vote and don't show up to said race
- Make a day in the current TSC schedule to possible race non Sonic games to spice things up a bit
- Start including prizes for those who win the most races in a schedule (I wouldn't mind supplying those)
- Incorporate a ranking system that's both friendly and competitive where if people reach a certain rank, they win a prize (I can supply these as well).

[SB737]

I agree and support all the ideas token said, I think the voting system definitely needs improving, perhaps a certain amount of points, rather than some people voting for multiple characters. And the way a tie is decided could be changed, not sure how it could be done though (perhaps basing it on the goal history of the game?)

[Token]

I agree and support all the ideas token said, I think the voting system definitely needs improving, perhaps a certain amount of points, rather than some people voting for multiple characters. And the way a tie is decided could be changed, not sure how it could be done though (perhaps basing it on the goal history of the game?)

There's a few things with the voting system that NEEDS to change and should be a PRIORITY.

- There shouldn't be more than 2 choices in both game types and character choice as the votes are spread out and often times causes confusion and/or rigging votes. IMO, There should be 1 set goal and a choice of two characters. That way, it's either vote for one or the other.

- Another thing, the ability to vote for MULTIPLE goals shouldn't be a thing. Granted, I get that it gives people a backup choice if the goal they want isn't available or just to have it as a second option. IMO, if my previous suggestion ISN'T taking into consideration, this should be the way to go about it.

- In regards to voting, I feel that once you vote, it should be permanent. Vote changing not only throws the count off but it will also entice other people to switch as well and/or discourage others to not races...especially in a tie.

- In regards to ties, they should be broken by people who show up to the race room about 15 minutes beforehand (You know what time the race starts so there should be no reason to not be in there 15 minutes before). If all voters show up, it should either a) fall down to the extra people who show up or b) chosen by random generator or another method that isn't influenced by anyone.

- Penalties should occur for those who vote and don't show to the room without letting anyone know in advanced. I'm thinking 1 race for first time offenders, 2 races for 2nd time offenders, 3+ for subsequent offenders. If you're not going to enter a race, it should be your responsibility to let either FF or Hyper know that you aren't going to enter as it takes 2 seconds to do. In addition, I was told that banned users from submissions votes didn't count (not sure how true this is) so this should probably be made known in post if it is true.

I think that's it for now. If I come up with more things regarding this specific post, I'll just edit it.

Edit: I think RN should change to a weekday night or move to an earlier time in the day. 12 PM EST sounds quite fair as it's either early for some or not as late for the EU residents.

[Kirbymon30]

Okay, so I agree with most of Token's points about the voting system (though I'm still on the fence about not allowing multiple votes), but a few of the other suggestions either are not going to work or be carried out very carefully.

-Racing non-Sonic games could work, but I think we should only race certain kinds of games. I think it would be more annoying than anything to race super long games like RPGs or adventure games because racing those kind of games may not appeal to some users. I also think we should at least stick to SEGA/Sonic Team games because this is a Sonic site and we shouldn't stray TOO far from that. Also, these races should be very uncommon, maybe like once a schedule or something. If it was any more than that it would be more annoying than special and new imo.

-Anything involving physical prizes is an absolute no, imo. There are some people who want to do very well in races but do not care for earning anything physical out of it/don't want to give out their address. This would basically mean that the only people who should try to win are those that want a prize, and people who don't care should let others who want to try for prizes do better than them. I just...can't see this working out at all. And prizes usually work better in big races or tournaments, nowadays we have races with like two people sometimes. I do agree that a ranking system could be fun, however, just without physical prizes involved. (Though technically, we sort of have a ranking system with Hyper's statistics, but I think we should maybe start from scratch because it's impossible to knock the people who have been here since the beginning off the top. If we erase the rankings and start over, both the old and new people have a chance.)

-Weekdays for RNs are also an absolute no, it would actually decrease the amount of people racing due to school, certain weekday jobs, etc. Friday/Saturday/Sunday is just much more accessible for the majority of people. I also think 12 PM is just a little too early; I think if we have to make it earlier it should be somewhere in the middle, like around 2-2:30. I think that's fair enough.

[Token]

Okay, so I agree with most of Token's points about the voting system (though I'm still on the fence about not allowing multiple votes), but a few of the other suggestions either are not going to work or be carried out very carefully.

-Racing non-Sonic games could work, but I think we should only race certain kinds of games. I think it would be more annoying than anything to race super long games like RPGs or adventure games because racing those kind of games may not appeal to some users. I also think we should at least stick to SEGA/Sonic Team games because this is a Sonic site and we shouldn't stray TOO far from that. Also, these races should be very uncommon, maybe like once a schedule or something. If it was any more than that it would be more annoying than special and new imo.

-Anything involving physical prizes is an absolute no, imo. There are some people who want to do very well in races but do not care for earning anything physical out of it/don't want to give out their address. This would basically mean that the only people who should try to win are those that want a prize, and people who don't care should let others who want to try for prizes do better than them. I just...can't see this working out at all. And prizes usually work better in big races or tournaments, nowadays we have races with like two people sometimes. I do agree that a ranking system could be fun, however, just without physical prizes involved. (Though technically, we sort of have a ranking system with Hyper's statistics, but I think we should maybe start from scratch because it's impossible to knock the people who have been here since the beginning off the top. If we erase the rankings and start over, both the old and new people have a chance.)

-Weekdays for RNs are also an absolute no, it would actually decrease the amount of people racing due to school, certain weekday jobs, etc. Friday/Saturday/Sunday is just much more accessible for the majority of people. I also think 12 PM is just a little too early; I think if we have to make it earlier it should be somewhere in the middle, like around 2-2:30. I think that's fair enough.

I changed my layout...it looks...weird

- In regards of the time change, I suggested 12 with the intention of keeping the EU people in mind. 2 seems reasonable but let them decide. I suggested a weekday as it's in a sense more assessable for people since people like to do things Saturday night and you can be often faced with a choice of racing or go out...at least I am. If anything, Sunday seems reasonable as well.

- As for prizes, it's a pretty good idea but I see what you're saying. At the same time, prizes is what kinda draws people in and keep them coming back. Also, by supplying prizes, it kinda brings spirits up and shows that what you're doing isn't for nothing and people are noticing your work. I suggested it because it's a method I used for my tournaments and now they've become successful although I've stopped giving prizes for a different reason which had a good defense. As I said before, it should be for someone who wins the season but could also implement a rule that doesn't allow mods to win to avoid a rigging argument. Also, we could do a prize for the person who has most improved as well.

I have more to say but I have a tournament to run so I'll just finish up later.

[Mastakirby]

Gonna copy the previous list styles cause I'm typing on my phone and I'm lazy. Prolly typo's here and there but I don't care lol

a. Ties:  Wouldn't mind seeing this randomized

b. Limiting Options: With this I think it would be cool to remove the last raced goal and/or character that was used in the last race for that game IF IT HAS MORE THAN TWO GOALS. Keep in mind I wouldn't mind either way cause ill still pretty much anything sonic wise, just an idea.

c. Vote Changes: This could be interesting, Im thinking based on the % of races that a person has participated in for the last season should give them a certian amount of  vote changes for the current season. Like heres a quick example lets say there were 10 races in a season and said racer joined 4 of them. Said racer can get 2 vote changes this season(and if its an odd number we round to the nearest even). So the max amount of vote changes one could get for this season is 5 for joining all 10 of last seasons races. We could also use something like this for the amount of times one can multi vote as well? (/me shrugs)Once again just a random idea that came out of nowhere.

- Non-Sonic games: Have nothing against racing other games for the lulz, but for TSC racenights? Nah, I'm not about it

- Prizes: Eh, maybe for a seperate TSC monthly event or something but I'm not feelin' it for racenights...HOWEVER IF YOU READ BELOW

- Prizes based on a ranking system: Depending on how this is set up maybe a seasonal/yearly prize if you honestly wanna go this route?

- Time/Date change: Been a while since the last vote, pretty a good Idea to have one of these every once in a while to give other timezones a chance.

Again just randomness being thrown out, I don't even care If nothing changes since I really like racenights (sucks that rl is eating up all my time tho x.x)

[sonikkusama]

figured i would post here since it's being brought up again. i mainly just want to say i agree with almost everything token mentioned. in fact, several months ago i had listed a lot of these exact ideas to a certain few other individuals.

i'll copy paste hyper's cliffs since they're neatly organized and right there.

- Penalizing people who vote and don't show: i'm a huge proponent of this, and this has managed to bother me a lot with the frequency it happens. hyper mentioned the only real way to punish them is to discount future votes, and i feel that's exactly the punishment they should get.

- Various voting issues:

a. Ties: i also agree that the ties should be either randomized, or allow all the people who showed up to do a tiebreaker vote between the two. this could be done right before the race in the irc or whatever at 4:15 (assuming everyone still is as late as they used to be)

b. Limiting Options: i agree with this, but yes, on a game by game basis. i also think goals that won prior should be taken away the next time the game shows up to prevent getting the same troll option picked again.

c. Limiting Votes: as hyper said, if b. is used, this won't be an issue so much.

d. Vote cannot be changed: i absolutely agree with this. in fact, this is the prime reason i stopped showing up to race nights. especially when this is combined with the tie rules, it makes things extremely frustrating. i've had multiple times where the votes were changed right before voting closes to create a tie, and the tiebreaker rules were used to change the outcome into a trollingly long goal. being one with limited time on saturdays, that made me either ruin my day or forced me to sit out one too many times.

- Non-Sonic games: i don't agree with this for anything related the sonic center race night. however i would love it if members of the community ever actually wanted to race other games and tried to get as many people racing those things for fun. i've been barking at certain individuals to race donkey kong country/mario for a long time.

- Prizes: i don't particularly think this is a good idea if physical prizes are used. given the obsessive nature of this community, and the potential drama caused by it, it could only lead to bad times. however if there was a way to win a badge on your tsc profile or something, i think that would be nice. there could also be badges for things like showing up so many times and not forfeiting and what not, to award people who aren't so skilled, but are consistent.

- Prizes based on a ranking system: not exactly sure why this is separate from the above, but my opinion is the same.

- Time/Date change: i would love more than anything for this to be much earlier in the day or on sunday even. people often bring up the working/school during the week as a reason to have it on saturday. i can agree with that, but the time it is on saturday takes most of my(and i'm sure others') traditional saturday activities and throws them out the window.

hopefully these issues can be sorted out after the marathon so i can start coming back to these things.